starts with God's creation of the universe and then continues with the theme
of God as Creator all the way through. I'm wondering if we think about the
essentials, and what's necessary to believe, what's necessary to be said.
First of all, I wonder, when you're talking unbelievers...We're talking about
the people who might not have really any conception of the Christian faith, what if
anything should we bring up when we're talking about issues of creation? - [Tim Keller] Well, I think you need to
stress the relationship of God to the creations. There's an awful lot of folks
now that are...They wouldn't call themselves pantheists...But there's a lot
of people when they say they're reli... , They're not religious or spiritual.
And
they have a sense of wonder about the world, and they know there's more to it
than just this material world, and they consider that a kind of
spirituality. If you push them a little bit, it really...They do not believe that
there was God who existed before the universe and created the material
universe as a work of art. Proverbs 8 actually says he was
delighting in humankind as he was making us. And so the idea that you have a
personal God who makes us in the light as a...But He exists before the world, He's
Transcendent above the world, He creates the world.
That's
extraordinarily important and also the world is not an accident. It's also not
the result of the forces of an evil and a good force coming together but you have
a...It was all good. All those things need to be stressed. It's not usually even with
a non-believer wants to go, they want to talk about evolution and
creation right away.
Because they want to talk about religion...Creation as a
religion versus science battle. You want to go back and say let me give
you all the reasons why Augustine actually said to the polytheist and the pagans of
his day, "Your doctrine of creation isn't ever going to lead to peace and justice in
the world. Because you actually believe in multiple power centers and that the
universe is just a result of a bunch of violent forces coming together." And he
says, "So I am the Christian, and I believe God made the world as a work
of art, out of love and joy." And he says that the Christian doctrine of creation is
a basis for believing that is possible to have a harmonious, just society. I would
rather push it back to things like that.
And then I have to say secondly, I say
honestly the relationship of creation to evolution isn't the heart here. And I even
say there are at least four, five, or six, different Orthodox Christian
views of evolution and that sort of thing. Let's not go there first. So first I go to
the doctrine of creation and the relationship of God to Creation, then I'd
rather take them to Jesus.
And just skip that for the time being
though. I know there are some people who would say no, that you've got to give them
the right view of that. - [Ligon Duncan] Yeah, following on that,
when a skeptical, intelligent, unbeliever is talking to you, he...As a
Christian...He probably assumes that your view of creation is an intellectual
liability. And so what I want to do is say no...First of all I want to own that.
No,
I actually believe this is true and I. Think it's important and I think it's
compelling and that's part of what Tim was just saying. Why is this compelling?
Because my view is actually more compelling than your view is, skeptical,
unbelieving, friend. You know I've got a more compelling view.
And then say and we
don't think that Christianity and science are actually in conflict, and you know
there are a lot of ways you can go about doing that. One is to say, really,
Protestant Christianity very much laid the philosophical foundation for the rise of
science as we know it today. So I think you want to get at those kinds
of things when you're talking non-believers. - Well, I also think that there's a place
for saying "I don't know." There are all sorts of questions.
Well, how does Genesis intersect with quantum physics?
Or whatever the person is interested in To say I don't know exactly how that
relates.
What about within the church? I mean Tim was mentioning if five or six
Orthodox Christian views. When you're working together and we're in
a church or we're in a ministry, what are the essentials in terms of, these
are sort of the boundaries of what we all have to agree on when we're talking about
creation in order to learn to recognize one another as orthodox and there's
teachers within the church and... - I want to emphasize at least three
things with folks. One, is creation ex nihilo.
Another is the
goodness of creation, and then another is the special creation of Adam and Eve.
And let me tell you why. Creation ex nihilo now, as
you know that's debated even amongst Christian Scholars, the status of that in
history. But the reason why, is the creator creature distinction is the
foundational distinction of Christianity with regard to the doctrine of God and
doctrine of everything else. If you don't have a God who has brought
everything else into being, you've got a very different kind of
theological system than Christianity.
And so creation... God being the cause of
everything else. God not being a part of the created order. The created order not
being birthed out of God, but the created order spoken into being by
God.
You don't even need Bara in Genesis 1 for that. All you need is, in
the beginning, God, so that God is the cause of everything else. That's hugely
important in Christian theology. The second thing, the goodness of
creation.
Genesis 1:1 solved the Gnostic controversy. The Gnostic controversy was
about the goodness of creation. And the church fathers went back and they
read Genesis 1:1, got it created, and then they read the end of Genesis 1
where it said everything was good, and they say well that's it. Any
theological document that claims that the creation is not good, is not orthodox.
That was it.
It was out. That Hebrews 1 solved the whole gnostic
controversy. So the goodness of creation is hugely important from a Christian
standpoint. And then, the special creation of Adam and Eve.
Acknowledging Adam and
Eve as the fountainhead of humanity and the federal headship of Christ...Of Adam.
So, that you have the Adam Christ parallels of the Gospels.
Those are the three things that I want to start off with. - Yeah, I would actually think though, the
first two things you just mentioned, I would want to talk to with a
non-believer.Because that to me is what I. Mean by saying what is the relationship of
God to the creation, and they're also quite...That's quite
attractive I think. Because you could really say, just as Augustine said, that
the polytheistic approach was that the universe is a chaotic field of vying
powers centers.
Actually, that's what the modern secular view is
too, that there's no love behind the universe. There's no...It really wasn't a
work of art. It really is just...It's just about power. It's not about love, it's
about power.
It's how we got here. Nature rent tooth and Claw. And that's all
we are. So how do you build a society of justice and peace, when you say, well
nature is really all about power.
I think that's regularly the non-Christian
first, all that. With a Christian, I do go to Adam and Eve too. I would say,
look, there are a lot of different understandings of how old the Earth
are...Or how old the Earth is, and there's a lot of different
understandings of what the days are in Genesis 1, and to what degree evolution
was part of how God created things. I would say there are several gradations
and I say there is four, or five, or six approaches there are, but
I say where I would stop is with Adam and Eve.
And I would say not only was there
an actual Adam and Eve, otherwise, I do not understand how the Pauline
understanding of salvation works. I just don't know how Romans 5 works. But
I'd even say look I know what my Christians who are scientists tell me, and
that is, they say, that all human beings were not genetically related to a human
couple. That's right now the consensus.
I'll be honest, I'll just say, they say
it's not the consensus. There was a little group of people
somewhere in sub-Saharan Africa and that's where everybody came from. But when I read
the text, I look and it says...It sure looks to me like it's saying, that God
created Adam and Eve, and he didn't just adapt a former...A human-like being and
adapt and put the image of God's...It doesn't seem like that's what it's saying.
It says we're created out of the dust of the ground. And I do think in the end,
even though I could be wrong in reading that text, I feel like I've got to read
have my reading of the text correct my understanding of what the science says.
I
mean in other words science is the way of telling me truth, and the scripture is the
way of telling me truth, but if they are clashing, even though I
know the science might show me that I'm really reading the scripture wrong, and
that has happened in the past, where the science came in and said, "Does
the Bible really teach that the Earth...That the sun revolves around the
Earth?" See it's impossible for the science to make you ask did you read the
text right? But if you go back and read the text and you come to your conclusions
as far as you can say before God, I'm trying my best to read this is what I
think the scripture says. Right now it says to me, no, there's an
Adam and Eve, and everyone came from Adam and Eve, and that they were a special
creation. And so even though I don't have an answer for my science friends but
that's where I stand. - And just like you said on the earlier
questions, that gives us an enormous advantage as believers talking to the
unbelievers in the world, because we've got a reason
why there is equality and dignity for every human being.
- Yeah, that's the way you go after that.
You really do... - When my friend, [inaudible]
was talking to a group of folks who were denying the history of Adam and Eve, and
saying, well we came from these different kinds varieties of people, he says, "I
know where that goes." And so I've got a reason why humanity is one
and ought to be treated with dignity. - Well and within the church sometimes we
argue and spar over all sorts of controversies as you know mentioned, but I
find that our biggest problem, or my biggest problem, is believing those
Central things. I'm a creature.
You know that I have limits put on by a
creator to whom I...Thats really often the most difficult thing for us
to submit fully. - Yes, it is. - All right. In other words, we're created
and there's a givenness to our humanity.
God gave it to us and we have to in a
sense, submit to it. So we don't live in an age in which we like that idea. The
idea that is we're supposed to be able to make ourselves whatever we want to do.
The doctrine of creation, there's bad news in it. There are ways to
take modern cultural narratives and use them against them and say, look,
are you for racial equality? Well, then you should actually wish there was
two people that we're all descended from.
Do you like the idea of justice and peace
in the world? Then you...In other words what you can actually do you is to use
some of the cultural narratives against them saying some of these traditional
Christian doctrines, you should be at least open to them because they really
enhance the thing you already believe. - And even personally a meaning and a
narrative life. - Oh yeah, you were made for a purpose..
No comments:
Post a Comment